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I am NOT a Min Pin!!

I am prompted to create this page to answer  one of the most common questions that folks ask me.  Do I want/own a TMT or  a Min Pin?    Keep in mind that these are ONLY my opinions and observations from living with both breeds.   Don't just take my word for it.  Contact lots of breeders and owners and decide for yourself which dog is the most suitable for  you.  This is a large page, and will take a while to load.   This page is discussing TOY Manchesters.....not Standards.

In creating this, I am splitting this into 3 main categories. 

1.  Appearance,  size, colors, etc.

2.  Temperament

3.  Cost and availability

*Appearance*

*Manchesters have thumbprints.  Min Pins do not.

Not true.  Many Manchesters are born without thumbprints, and some fade as they get older.  Many Min Pins have faint thumbprints.  This is a big enough problem that it is addressed in the AKC breed standard for Miniature Pinschers which says in part:

"Disqualifications - Thumb mark (patch of black hair surrounded by rust on the front of the foreleg between the foot and the wrist; on chocolates, the patch is chocolate hair)."
AKC BREED STANDARD

*Manchesters have pencil marks on their toes, Min Pins do not.

Also not true.  My black Min Pins have pencil marks on their toes, and again this is addressed in the Miniature Pinscher Breed Standard.  Comet had pretty good thumbprints too until they faded some.  I put 2 extreme examples on here, but I have Toy Manchesters that have faded and have about the same amount of thumbprint as Comet.

"Black with sharply defined rust-red markings on cheeks, lips, lower jaw, throat, twin spots above eyes and chest, lower half of forelegs, inside of hind legs and vent region, lower portion of hocks and feet. Black pencil stripes on toes. Chocolate with rust-red markings the same as specified for blacks, except brown pencil stripes on toes."  AKC BREED STANDARD

*Manchesters are almost always black and tan.  I have a pic of a Blue Manchester, but have never seen one in real life.  Miniature Pinschers are available in more colors, but typically you will see Red, Black and Rust, and Chocolate.  Please note that Min Pins also have several dilute colors not pictured here.

*If a dog is big.....say 20+ pounds it has to be a Manchester because Min Pins don't get that large!

Wrong.  I am sure most Min Pin breeders would prefer that the dogs didn't get that large, but they sure do.  This is a dog my Mom had, Rusty, who was about 18" tall and weighed a good 18lbs.  Note, he is a chocolate Min Pin,  who was cropped and docked....not a Manchester.

*Min Pins are always cropped and docked.

Not always.  Typically even back yard breeders and puppymills will dock tails on Min Pins.  It is a fairly simple procedure, and helps to identify the 'look'' of a Miniature Pinscher.  But natural tails and free standing ears on Min Pins are not all that uncommon.  Check out Min Pin rescue.  I bet you see tons of them.   MIN PIN RESCUE  Remember, Standard Manchesters are allowed a cropped ear.  I would say if you have a dog with cropped ears AND a natural tail, it's more likely to be a Manchester. 

*Tails

Lately I have had some conversations and read emails from folks who  have a dog that they believe is a purebred Manchester with a docked tail.   I have to say something here about this, and I hope that I do not offend those people who love their pets.  However.  Manchester breeders, whether it's reputable breeders, backyard breeders or even puppymill breeders will not dock a Manchester tail.  Period.  There is no reason to dock a tail and then make the dog appear something other than a Manchester.  Since Manchesters are a rare breed, why would anyone go the extra mile to breed such a rare breed and then alter it to make it appear as a very common, easily obtained, less expensive breed like a Miniature Pinscher?  Also.  Tails are docked by a very simple procedure that basically anyone can do, but it MUST be done during the first week of life, preferably around 3 days old.   If a pet owner decided to dock the tail on their Manchester at any point in time beyond that early 3 day window, they will potentially spend around $300-$400 just for that one procedure, IF they could even find a vet who would do it for them.  Vets do not even like to dock tails on little puppies past 5 days old, and sometimes will even refuse if you have procrastinated too long.  I cannot envision any pet owner willing or able to spend that much money to have their dog's tail docked just for a cosmetic purpose, when 99% of Manchester owners seek out this breed because of it's individuality.  If they had wanted a Min Pin in the first place, they could have purchased one for about 1/4 of the cost of a Manchester, and the tail would most likely already have been docked.  There have been a number of dogs misidentified on pet finders, humane societies, etc.  that have a head similar in appearance to a purebred Manchester, but who's tail is docked.  I am here to tell you that is NOT a Manchester.  There is no compelling reason to dock that tail.

*Manchesters have closed kiss marks--Miniature Pinschers do not.

UPDATE!!!  I originally said that I had never seen a Miniature Pinscher with a real closed kiss marks.   Well I was wrong!  I found an old picture of Comet that I had forgotten about.  This shows that Min Pins can indeed have closed kiss marks!!!!!

I have seen Manchesters with open kisses, and this is a fault according to the breed standard which says in part:

"There shall be a very small tan spot over each eye, and a very small tan spot on each cheek."  AKC BREED STANDARD

*Manchesters have rosettes on their chests....Min Pins do not.

Nope.  They both have them, and they are both supposed to have them per the AKC breed standard.

*Manchesters have  less 'stop' to their heads, and Min Pins have a more pronounced stop.

Well that is mostly true.  However I have seen some Toy Manchesters with heads like Min Pins or Chihuahuas, so who knows.  LOL

*Manchesters and Min Pins are about the same size.

That is mostly true.  However, remember that breeders end up with dogs of all sizes, too big, too small, so that is also just not that accurate.

These are some pics I have of my Min Pins alongside my Toy Manchesters.  See for yourself.

*Movement.  Miniature Pinschers have a 'hackney gait' and Manchesters do not.

In Theory this is correct.  However, I have seen TMTs  in the show ring that have as much lift and break as Min Pins, and although not correct, it seems to catch the judges eyes, and they will award winners to such dogs.

There is no break at the 'wrist' like there is in a Miniature Pinscher	The Hackney Pony, from which Miniature Pinschers unique gait was named.  This pony has 'extreme' lift, meaning that the foreleg goes above a horizontal line.
	This Min Pin also has 'extreme' lift.  Also note, how flat the dogs back is and where the tail joins the body compared to a TMT.
The 2 Manchesters.  Standard on the left, toy on the right	The 3 Pinschers.  From left to right, Miniature Pinscher, German Pinscher, Doberman Pinscher

From left, Toy Manchester, Standard Manchester, German Pinscher and Doberman Pinscher

The same 4 dogs as above in profile.

*Temperament*

This is hard to define.    Again, this is just based on my observations.  There are exceptions both good and bad to every rule.  I love both breeds equally, so this is not a recommendation for one or the other.

I receive numerous questions about my above statement that neutered males make the best pets, so I wanted to add a note here on that subject.  Despite the misconception that males "mark",  boys that are neutered before sexual maturity (usually around 6-8 months of age) rarely ever think to lift their legs.  Most of my male puppies that I have kept to show squat and pee until they are 9-10 months of age.  Girls, on the other hand, seem to "mark" regardless of their age,  and regardless of whether or not they have been spayed.  Most of the time,  memories of a boy dog that pees all over everything, will reveal that male was not neutered until after sexual maturity, and it is a challenge to re-train that tendency.  Girls can be quite a bit more independent and stubborn, while boys seem much more eager to please.  Typically boys are big love sponges and dote on your every word, while girls will choose when they want attention, and when they do not.  If you ask--a lot of breeders share my view, and would choose a neutered male if they were forced to only keep one dog.

Something interesting that I have observed with my Toy Manchester litters V Min Pin litters that friends of mine have had.  When a friendly stranger comes to visit, they sit on the floor, and I let puppies out,  the puppies make a beeline for the stranger and don't seem to want to leave their laps.  In Min Pin litters, you let puppies go, and they split off in 7 different directions--good luck trying to catch them! 

*Cost and Availability*

No question Min Pins are more readily available.  Registration statistics for 2005 + 2006 for Individual dogs are:  Ranking is based on 154 Registered breeds of dogs with the AKC for these 2 years.

Miniature Pinscher

Manchester Terrier (please note, Toys are registered along with Standards so there is no way to define how many are toys and how many are standards.  One breed-2 varities/sizes)

Source:  AKC Statistics

Pricing varies wildly from breeder to breeder, state to state, area to area.  Prices for Min Pins can range from $50-$1000 (Please don't buy a $50 out of the newspaper dog--LOL)  Toy Manchesters are typically more with prices ranging from $800-$1200

If you want a Toy Manchester, be prepared to WAIT.  You can NOT decide to get one, and have one by the weekend.  If you have your  mind set on a female, be prepared to wait even longer. 

If you want a Miniature Pinscher, chances are you can have one by the weekend--they are everywhere.  Just be VERY careful who you buy from and if possible, visit the breeders home and meet the parents of the puppies.  Since there are SO many back yard bred  Min Pins, the likelihood you are going to end up with health and temperament issues is very high if you are not careful.  If the parents and the puppies aren't clean, healthy, lively and full of spirit, do not buy from them.  I don't care how tempted you are!

*Rescue*

There are more dogs available in rescue for Min Pins than Toy Manchesters.  There are lots of great dogs that need homes. 

MIN PIN RESCUE

MANCHESTER  RESCUE

You can also search on Petfinder by breed for dogs in  your area.  Couple of words about rescue.  I have a rescue Min Pin.  Her name is Willow.    She is a wonderful dog, but I have no clue what her history or background is.  I don't know how old she is,  so we kinda made up a birthday for her.  You won't know a lot about rescues, or even if they are 'purebred' dogs.  It doesn't matter in the long run.  You love them, they love you, so don't get all worried about are they TMT or MP.  Just love them .

Some folks are very noble, and really insist on having a 'rescue' dog.    That is all well and good, but don't rule out retired Champions, or older puppies.  Many times breeders will have these dogs available, if you ask.  I find that some people get all hung-up on the word 'rescue' and jump in and get a dog that's not really right for them.  Take your TIME.....be CAREFUL.  Remember, you are potentially going to spend 10+ years with this animal.  Make sure it's right for both of you.

Last words--DNA testing is now available to determine your dog's breed!    There are now test kits that anyone can perform at home with a simple DNA test.    However.  Check the manufacturer's website carefully as the number of breeds they can identify is limited, and so far nobody can test for Manchester Terriers!  They run about $60 and take several weeks to complete.  If you are interested, Google Dog DNA for different options.

I hope you have found this to be helpful.  I welcome questions and comments!!  E-mail me!

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